19 June 2013

Reach and the Nine and Thirty Kingdoms

Continued from the last two posts, and in response to this post.

Fighting Distances


Two people in a sword fight spend most of the fight about 10' apart - the distance of one step plus an outstretched arm with a sword in it. They only move in to make a blow.

Standing any closer than that is suicide, as you won't have time to parry an incoming blow (and will be forced to try to dodge, likely throwing yourself off balance and getting killed by the continuation of the attack). I talked yesterday about how important *not dodging* is.

Managing Distance


"But on the other hand, are we assuming that combatants are too stupid to try to get inside an opponent's reach? Too stupid to knock the spear aside with their shield? It balances out."

It would seem so, but it doesn't, and here's why.

For the person with the longer reach, it's easy to maintain a longer distance. Any time the opponent gets close, you circle away from them (i.e. step sideways and back). At no point is the long-reach person threatened in this series of actions - they are still too far away to be hit.

Additionally, at any point, the person with the reach advantage can simply step forward and attempt a blow in relative safety- they can strike while they are still out of reach of their opponent's weapon.

However, for the person with the shorter reach, in order to attempt a blow, they have to achieve a tactical advantage which will let them simultaneously catch the other person off balance enough that they can't circle away, control the longer weapon as they close (so they don't die), *and only then* can they attempt a blow. Much, much more difficult.

It's certainly not impossible, but hopefully that illustrates why it doesn't "balance out".

This is also a good argument for buffing spears back up to their full length, by the way.

10 comments:

  1. Although, combat in dungeon quarters would make it impossible to give ground indefinitely. Animals, too, make it necessary to cover the case where combat occurs at closer range than 10'.

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    1. Yes, I need to do some experiments and post the results in a new post on confined space fighting.

      My intuition is that confined space fighting would be absolutely brutal, lots of ground fighting, not much opportunity for defense and keeping safe. I also think that people vastly overestimate the effectiveness of weapons in close-quarters fighting - you basically can't use a sword or an axe in a 5' corridor.

      Anyway, it's a good point, and one worth investigating. I was indeed speaking in a vacuum.

      RE: animals - for non-fantastic creatures, I think their power is vastly overestimated in D&D. A wolf, for instance, would pose no threat whatsoever to a fully armed and armoured man.

      But yes, animals, if they were interested in fighting, would likely close the gap with little regard for themself. I think if you are recklessly closing the gap, though, you should get a free hit - not a free attack - but a free, guaranteed hit on a wolf leaping for your throat.

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  2. Weapon versus armor type
    ...

    On the damage dice roll, ones will be rerolled if the attack is acid, cold or piercing in nature and the defender or target is wearing flexible or mail armor.
    ...
    On the damage dice roll, ones will be rerolled if the attack is fire, force or cutting in nature and the defender or target is wearing soft or leather armor.
    ...
    On the damage dice roll, ones will be rerolled if attack is electricity, sonic or bludgeoning in nature and the defender or target is wearing rigid or plate armor.
    ...
    When any die is rerolled, you must accept the result of the second roll. A dice can only be rerolled once.

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  3. Real world fighting moves more then RPG fighting, part of that is limits of the table top space with miniatures and part of that is certainly to diminish the zig-zag factor of unrestrained movement in gaming that doesn't really exist in real life.

    At the prime of my game one guy with spear against me armed with sword and shield was dead (in fake fighting with one hit to head or torso = death) unless he was shockingly amazingly good. Two guys with spears vs me still armed with sword and shield was a 50/50 prospect. Three with spear and I was dead no matter what. I'm a very mobile fighter and fighting a spearman absolutely depends on not allowing them to be aggressive and keep control of the space, get them on the defensive and they lose a lot of their advantage, allowing a fighter with sword and shield to close.

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    1. "Real world fighting moves more then RPG fighting, part of that is limits of the table top space with miniatures and part of that is certainly to diminish the zig-zag factor of unrestrained movement in gaming that doesn't really exist in real life."

      That's one reason why I don't like/use miniatures, and a big reason why I got away from 3e (which more or less requires battlemat/miniatures).

      When you're fighting in imagination-space I feel like there's a lot more room for fluidity and flexibility compared to the artificial stasis of the battlemat.

      "Two guys with spears vs me still armed with sword and shield was a 50/50 prospect."

      I feel like I asked this already, so apologies if you already answered this, but what system/style were you and the spearmen using? I assume your sword and shield is based on I.33, but there's a variety of spear sources out there - Fiore, Vadi, Silver, Meyer...

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    2. I've read a great deal on fighting techniques (western and eastern) but have not trained exclussively in one school.I,m bad with books titles but there are two old ones one german and the other italian that I poured over. I spent about 20 years beatting and being beaten by boffer weapons and other padded weapons and you learn something that way alone if you don't stick with just one game.
      A touch of martial arts and a briefly violent youth have served to make me okay in a fight.

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  4. The battle space can not be ignored. You keep assuming that the guy with spear has the ability to move whenever/wherever he wants. Having served 20 years as in infantryman in the Army, as well as having studied Tea Kwon DO for about 3 years, I can tell you eventually you run out of space to back up. more over if you are constantly shifting on the battlefield you can eventually stumble and fall.

    First, when backing up in any room, eventually your going to hit a wall. if not a wall a fellow combatant. The spear, honestly is only good when in an open field. Do not forget that the spear was employed in open combat, on a field, where everyone lined up in some type of formation, either the Greek phalanx, or a pikeman's square. but, in the confines of a dungeon, the spear start to lose its advantages.

    Furthermore, when facing someone with a weapon that swings in an arc(ie a slashing weapon), a great strategy is to allow for the swing step back out of range, as the weapon swings past, and the rush into close combat range in order to break the range of the weapon. This can be applied to the spear, you can parry the spear, stomp it to pin it to the ground, and then lunge into range.

    let's not forget you can always sheath whatever weapon your using and grab the spear itself and attempt to wrestle the spear from your opponents grasp.

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    1. "The battle space can not be ignored."

      Of course not, but that's situational. We're speaking in the abstract here.

      I am currently working on a post dealing with this issue in general, though, because it is an important one.

      "....I can tell you eventually you run out of space to back up."

      Then you know that no-one is talking about backing up, as backing up in a fight is generally not a good idea. You *circle away*, you don't back up.

      " Do not forget that the spear was employed in open combat, on a field, where everyone lined up in some type of formation, either the Greek phalanx, or a pikeman's square."

      With respect, this is quite simply false. Fiore Dei Liberi, writing c. 1400, and others of that era (i.e. when the spear was current, and when I'm writing about) describe the spear as a single combat weapon.

      George Silver, the English Master writing c. 1600 was of the opinion that the spear and other long staff weapons (i.e. quarterstaff, bill, etc.) were simply the best single combat weapons.

      "but, in the confines of a dungeon, the spear start to lose its advantages."

      Absolutely, and if you look back a few posts, I have written about that before (http://spellsandsteel.blogspot.com/2013/01/dungeoneering-tools-spear.html). However, I'm not talking about a dungeon here, I'm just talking in the abstract. Sorry if that wasn't more clear!

      "Furthermore, when facing someone with a weapon that swings in an arc (ie a slashing weapon), a great strategy is to allow for the swing step back out of range, as the weapon swings past, and the rush into close combat range in order to break the range of the weapon."

      Oddly enough, none of the masters writing at the time those weapons were in use describes that strategy. And, from personal experience, you would most certainly die attempting it.

      A sword moves far faster than you do, and a competent swordsman will have it under complete control at all times. If it misses its mark, you'd better be sure that it's coming right back at you.

      Keep in mind that the kind of swordplay you see in movies is pretty much nothing like real swordplay.

      "This can be applied to the spear, you can parry the spear, stomp it to pin it to the ground, and then lunge into range."

      It's far from a sure thing. Keep in mind that both ends of a spear have an iron point - when one end is parried, the other is swung around to bear.

      Obviously that's what you're trying to do when fighting a spearman, but that's the equivalent of saying, "It's easy to win with a spear - simply beat their sword out of the way, and stab them in the face!"

      That's the goal. That's what this is all about.

      It's not a catch-all remedy to the weapon.

      "let's not forget you can always sheath whatever weapon your using and grab the spear itself and attempt to wrestle the spear from your opponents grasp."

      Again, you would almost certainly die attempting this. Grabbing the shaft has it's place, but it most certainly cannot be used as your only defense.

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    2. ""Furthermore, when facing someone with a weapon that swings in an arc (ie a slashing weapon), a great strategy is to allow for the swing step back out of range, as the weapon swings past, and the rush into close combat range in order to break the range of the weapon."

      Oddly enough, none of the masters writing at the time those weapons were in use describes that strategy. And, from personal experience, you would most certainly die attempting it.

      A sword moves far faster than you do, and a competent swordsman will have it under complete control at all times. If it misses its mark, you'd better be sure that it's coming right back at you.

      Keep in mind that the kind of swordplay you see in movies is pretty much nothing like real swordplay."

      To add on, if a sword blow did miss its initial strike it isn't going to, or shouldn't really, be out of position for a thrust into the face or chest.

      ""This can be applied to the spear, you can parry the spear, stomp it to pin it to the ground, and then lunge into range."

      It's far from a sure thing. Keep in mind that both ends of a spear have an iron point - when one end is parried, the other is swung around to bear.

      Obviously that's what you're trying to do when fighting a spearman, but that's the equivalent of saying, "It's easy to win with a spear - simply beat their sword out of the way, and stab them in the face!"

      That's the goal. That's what this is all about.

      It's not a catch-all remedy to the weapon.

      "let's not forget you can always sheath whatever weapon your using and grab the spear itself and attempt to wrestle the spear from your opponents grasp."

      Again, you would almost certainly die attempting this. Grabbing the shaft has it's place, but it most certainly cannot be used as your only defense."

      I agree with Charles, to a certain extent, especially if someone were boneheaded enough to sheath their weapon while staring down a spearman, or boneheaded enough to beat the spear down and take the extra time to pin it with their foot, both sets of actions take way more time than simply parrying and staying in the bind until they have gained the advantage and then pointy end in the armpit. Even then it takes stones, and harness, and skill to do that. Man with spear does have the better position, especially when it is one on one against someone with something that isn't a spear or poll-arm. Furthermore, provided you did something like drop your weapon and grasp his spear with both hands to wrench it, any spearman is just going to let you have the spear, which due to you probably muscling it hard you make your stumble backwards with the butt end of the spear, and you just created an opening for the spearman to either book it, or close with you into dagger range, or....

      All things being equal the spearman will pretty much take on anything that isn't a spear or poll-arm.

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    3. "To add on, if a sword blow did miss its initial strike it isn't going to, or shouldn't really, be out of position for a thrust into the face or chest."

      Indeed - thanks for bring this up.

      A crucial part of martial arts with weapons is what we call posta to posta - i.e. guard to guard.

      This means that every cut, thrust, or action of any kind starts in a guard (i.e. a ready position), and ends in a ready position. It may even pass through one or more ready positions on the way to its destination.

      As Thomas points out, the finishing position for a cut is what's called posta longa in the Italian tradition - arms extended, with the point directed at the opponents neck or face.

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