tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post150456155733923619..comments2024-03-22T05:09:24.512-04:00Comments on Spells and Steel: Shields, Axes, and the Nine and Thirty KingdomsCharles Ahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-44316872892758526942013-06-20T08:43:13.459-04:002013-06-20T08:43:13.459-04:00Shields certainly block but the fellow striking yo...Shields certainly block but the fellow striking your shield trying to beat his way past it into you is trying to get himself killed in the process. Part of the use of a shiled is in presenting a whole lot of "not you" that gets in the way and forces the other fellow to work arround it. A shield can conceal changes in grip and stance as well. It's a parrying device, it's a small portable wall, it's a weapons, and a screen. <br />Shiled use is different in one on one combats, line battles, and wild mixed fights.<br />In one fight I had a guy jump at my shield with both feet, the ploy failed as my shield and I were heavier then he expected, on contact with my shield I sort of moved him like he was standing on it as I delivered a blow with my sword that would have split him open at the middle were it not padded. It's lightning fast but you can indeed do more with a shied than simple interpose it between you and incoming blows.<br />JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-25177127540112245362013-06-19T13:16:07.860-04:002013-06-19T13:16:07.860-04:00yes, I can see why you like it. It moves very fas...yes, I can see why you like it. It moves very fast, the men are clearly frightened of one another, no one is cool and overly calm. The combat is paced, without constant address to arms ... and when Neesom makes a mistake - even just resting - he's wounded.<br /><br />Too bad the movie was such shit.<br /><br />Strictly for interest's sake, and because we seem to be tossing out examples, have you see the duel scene from the Life and Death of Colonel Blimp? Not for it's combat simulation, but for the pleasantness of the extremity of duelling rules by circa 1905.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIENN2zv6WEAlexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-13867375594729838972013-06-19T12:52:01.414-04:002013-06-19T12:52:01.414-04:00Don't know if you've seen Rob Roy, but the...Don't know if you've seen Rob Roy, but the final duel between Tim Roth and Liam Neeson is a pretty good example of mortal swordplay, albeit in the context of a formal judicial duel. I'm not well-versed in the art of the Scottish Broadsword, so I can't speak to the specific technicalities of the fight, but in broad principles it seems pretty good.<br /><br />It's also a great example of the potential skill disparity between a skilled and semi-skilled fighter - Tim Roth is never in any real danger from Liam Neeson (who himself clearly knows how to fight).<br /><br />Rob Roy spoilers (obviously), but the final duel is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27M5KWI_q50Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-71364969501052315262013-06-19T08:44:17.155-04:002013-06-19T08:44:17.155-04:00All your responses were excellent. Thank you.
All your responses were excellent. Thank you.<br />Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-24306635141120022012013-06-19T01:16:41.153-04:002013-06-19T01:16:41.153-04:00Re-reading my response, it might look like I didn&...Re-reading my response, it might look like I didn't like the scene, but I have to say it was pretty awesome.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-56093214584668094442013-06-19T01:10:18.847-04:002013-06-19T01:10:18.847-04:00It's definitely a tense and emotional scene - ...It's definitely a tense and emotional scene - I haven't seen the film, but I remember you recommending it on you blog before, and I remember really liking the Man in the Iron Mask when I read it as a kid. I'll have to check it out - great cast, too.<br /><br />It still makes some of the classic Hollywood swordfight mistakes, though. Some of it can definitely be put down to the fact that D'Artagnan is engaged in an all-out attack with little regard for his own safety, but some of it can't.<br /><br />There's a lot of being uncrossed in distance (partly explainable by D's ferocity), inexplicable lack of follow-ups (R has numerous perfect opportunities to kill D), purposeless spinning (exposing your back is a serious no-no), and air-stabbing (i.e. deliberately aiming blows way off target, which I realize is a safety thing when dealing with actors).<br /><br />That said, I really liked the last part in the church - I love how tuckered out they are, the cut to the hand from D's desperate last-ditch defense (Gloves shall be splintered?), and the grappling.<br /><br />I don't know if you've checked out my grappling rules (basically, crits mean you grapple), but the grapples in this fight scene really seemed like the kind of thing I was going for with them - grappling as an attack of opportunity, not as a conscious plan.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-33503592970831236702013-06-19T00:42:44.812-04:002013-06-19T00:42:44.812-04:00"So what you're saying is that the 's..."So what you're saying is that the 'shields shall be splintered' argument is really nonsense - these would be skilled, trained combatants, and the likelihood that a shield would be splintered - given its proper use - is irrational."<br /><br />Yes and no. I can absolutely see someone throwing up their shield as a barrier to save their life, even though that's not the "best" thing to do - at the end of the day, you have to stay alive to keep fighting.<br /><br />I think the idea with SSBS is that it retcons the action - your hero messed up, got hit for massive damage, but the player steps in, rewinds, and has the character just barely manage to get her shield up.<br /><br />That said, shields are hefty enough that I'm skeptical one blow could destroy a shield, even from a poleaxe, although wooden shields would degrade with use and need maintenance.<br /><br />I simply can't imagine a metal shield like a buckler being seriously damaged in a fight.<br /><br />"Would it not also follow that if a lot of damage were taken, that would mean the shield failed to be struck at all, but that the defendant was? I'd like your thoughts on that."<br /><br />Indeed. I think if SSBS is allowed as a retcon, it might be better to represent the "Oh shit!" response of just throwing up your shield have some kind of tactical disadvantage instead of losing the shield.<br /><br />But if you're allowing retcons for people with shields, why not people with swords? Why can someone retroactively get their shield up, but not their sword?<br /><br />For that matter, why can they not retroactively decapitate their foe, instead of taking massive damage?<br /><br />It kinda seems to me that it's better to just not retcon stuff... The dice say what the dice say.<br /><br />"I'd also like to know what you think about Homer's Iliad, where shields were 'pierced' by spears, and then tossed away by the combatants."<br /><br />It's probably been ten years since I read the Iliad, so forgive me if I'm a little rusty. My recollection (and this seems to be backed up by a quick spot-check of searching "shield" in the text) is that this is in the context of spears being thrown.<br /><br />You're quite right in pointing out that against a missile, a shield would indeed be used to block, and could become useless if the projectile was too firmly lodged.<br /><br />I've heard that pilums were specifically for this purpose. Then again, I've heard that they weren't. YMMV.<br /><br />Shields would also be used for blocking in the context of a shield wall, where the shields are held together to make - well - a wall.<br /><br />And - like I said - I'm not saying that you would *never* block in single combat. No-one's going to purposefully *not* put their shield in the way of an axe falling on their head. Just saying that it's something you do because you blew it, not as a matter of course.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-84185404692486572442013-06-18T12:19:21.667-04:002013-06-18T12:19:21.667-04:00"Hollywood depictions of combat are terrible ...<i>"Hollywood depictions of combat are terrible for this - the two fighters stand sword toe-to-toe and slug it out, constantly crossing and uncrossing their swords while they're close enough to punch each other. Well, in real life, both of them would end up dead doing that - being uncrossed in distance tends to lead to double kills."</i><br /><br />Then is the clumsy brawling of the 1973/74 films of the Three Musketeers and the Four Musketeers not better depictions of actual sword fights? If you don't know the movie, here's the famous fight at the end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9uGy3LlNeI (hope it doesn't spoil it for anyone).<br /><br />I'd like to know your opinion on that too, please.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-2183520120409015592013-06-18T12:15:48.987-04:002013-06-18T12:15:48.987-04:00"... the shield is used to defend you in the ...<i>"... the shield is used to defend you in the same way a weapon is used - by controlling and guiding the opponent's weapon, not by simply "blocking" it ..."</i><br /><br />So what you're saying is that the 'shields shall be splintered' argument is really nonsense - these would be skilled, trained combatants, and the likelihood that a shield would be splintered - given its proper use - is irrational.<br /><br />Would it not also follow that if a lot of damage were taken, that would mean the shield failed to be struck at all, but that the defendant was? I'd like your thoughts on that.<br /><br />I'd also like to know what you think about Homer's Iliad, where shields were 'pierced' by spears, and then tossed away by the combatants.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.com