tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post255310720609893753..comments2024-03-22T05:09:24.512-04:00Comments on Spells and Steel: Spears, Weapon Mechanics, and the Nine and Thirty KingdomsCharles Ahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-27598065188644202442013-06-19T01:42:29.951-04:002013-06-19T01:42:29.951-04:00"In all honesty the haft for a shovel or a sp..."In all honesty the haft for a shovel or a spade is an entirely different thing than the shaft of a spear."<br /><br />I don't see how - they're both a metal cone wrapped around a tapered shaft of wood that's a comfortable thickness to hold in your hand.<br /><br />"Further more I am not saying that using a spear to deliver blows would damage the shaft,"<br /><br />Sorry, some people who argue against the historicity of spear blows make that claim, it seemed like you were. You seem to have found my discussion with Hugh about this - I seem to recall him making that claim.<br /><br />"but that it is simply a terrible way to attack with a spear as they will not impart force the same way swinging a weapon intended for delivering blows is."<br /><br />Sorry, you've lost me. From doing pell drills with spears, I can tell you that I can deliver a truly enormous amount of force with a swung spear shaft - the leverage from the long lever of the spear and the two hands on the shaft is immense.<br /><br />"And I can see you have already made up your mind on this, and have discussed this with Hugh."<br /><br />I wouldn't say I've made up my mind - I realize the historical evidence is less than clear, it just seems to me that striking with a spear can deliver a truly devastating blow - only slightly less so than a poleaxe blow. <br /><br />And a short spear is much like a poleaxe with no beak.<br /><br />It follows to me that you could swing a short spear like a poleaxe to similar effect, and I've never seen any convincing evidence that this is not the case.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-74144229184630844202013-06-18T16:02:47.864-04:002013-06-18T16:02:47.864-04:00In all honesty the haft for a shovel or a spade is...In all honesty the haft for a shovel or a spade is an entirely different thing than the shaft of a spear.<br />Further more I am not saying that using a spear to deliver blows would damage the shaft, but that it is simply a terrible way to attack with a spear as they will not impart force the same way swinging a weapon intended for delivering blows is.<br /><br />And I can see you have already made up your mind on this, and have discussed this with Hugh.Ian Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05585316796421964527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-66130582799615420592013-06-18T08:00:10.561-04:002013-06-18T08:00:10.561-04:00Indeed - the king of weapons. In one form or anoth...Indeed - the king of weapons. In one form or another, it was the backbone of pretty much every army up until WWII - even in WWI there was widespread use of the bayonet, which, as you point out, is really just a crappy spear.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-14105264111533379802013-06-18T07:48:27.430-04:002013-06-18T07:48:27.430-04:00There's some debate as to that. My personal op...There's some debate as to that. My personal opinion is that the spear was used for more than just thrusts. My reasoning is that Fiore is presenting us with a system, and there are common threads through all the weapons. That's certainly not universally accepted, though.<br /><br />" My understanding is that properly made spears are terrible for swinging blows due to the way the hafts are tapered. "<br /><br />I've heard that theory, and, quite frankly, it's a load of crap. For reference, go out to your shed, take a spade or shovel, and smash the head of it against a tree (not a shovel you like).<br /><br />It's not going to break the haft. Nor would conking some poor schmo on the head with the blade or shaft of a spear break the spear.<br /><br />I think it's a typical case of assuming people 500 years ago were morons, and couldn't build a proper weapon.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-76420335808730258702013-06-18T07:01:16.056-04:002013-06-18T07:01:16.056-04:00I've seen combats indoors with a large number ...I've seen combats indoors with a large number of folks using padded weapons and it is a comic mess. I've sen a doorway absolutely filled with spears and polearms to suchh an extent no one could fit through the door. Two men really can defend a single doorway against dozens, the only way to get in is to convince an ally to commit probable suicide. Spears are a daarned good weapon. <br />A friend of mine made what he called a durable pylum (it weighed a ton); when we were testing it against the target and backing I was using for knife and axe throwing I (with a running throw not at all disimilar to how I fought in fake combat) hurled the javelin into target and backing deep enough it penetrated a few inches. A shield or armor wouldn't do much against that.JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-77938464416135585772013-06-18T03:26:24.480-04:002013-06-18T03:26:24.480-04:00Fiore also indicates that the spear is to be used ...Fiore also indicates that the spear is to be used for delivering blows and not just thrusts yes? My understanding is that properly made spears are terrible for swinging blows due to the way the hafts are tapered. Ian Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05585316796421964527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-55934127992287696392013-06-18T00:01:00.325-04:002013-06-18T00:01:00.325-04:00"That kind of superlative seems common to me ..."That kind of superlative seems common to me from, say, rapier manuals."<br /><br />Fiore does (in his own way) trash talk a lot, it's true, but he never says anything that's BS, in my experience. If he says the art of the spear is supreme, I'm inclined to believe him.<br /><br />"Meanwhile Price seems to at least imply (maybe I extrapolate too much?) is that spear is shown as much so you learn to counter it as so you learn to fight with it."<br /><br />I wouldn't agree with that, and I would offer this as evidence: the only plays of other weapons against the spear are little bits thrown in as bridging material (staff and dagger vs. spear, and two clubs and dagger vs. spear).<br /><br />The spear is kind of the acme of the halfsword - bigger, heavier, and more devastating.<br /><br />"I thought I might argue with Vadi: his illustrations are all unarmored except for pollaxe and halfsword. Talhoffer shows armor only for spear-and-sword fighting, but I don't think that's conclusive."<br /><br />I would point out that Fiore claims that the spear is supreme in armour and out of it.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-46642523715479936802013-06-17T23:56:51.045-04:002013-06-17T23:56:51.045-04:00I would like to point out how important the spear ...I would like to point out how important the spear is. The spear in one form or another has been successfully used in combat up until the 19th century, the last successful bayonet charge was during Gettysburg, on the little round top, and led by Col. Chamberlain. The bayonet, when fixed onto the end of a rifle, is simply a spear with a crappy handle. this weapon has been taught to the U.S. Infantryman up until 2010.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08951166184397407102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-60873271619167212922013-06-17T21:39:33.524-04:002013-06-17T21:39:33.524-04:00I bet the reason Vadi shows people fencing with sp...I bet the reason Vadi shows people fencing with spears out of armor is because they couldn't be arsed to armor up on the day the illustrator came by to sketch them, and Vadi assumed that his audience would understand that this was intended to be done in armor. I could be spitballing though since I don't study Italian fencing, but the plates that have Talhoffer showing hablschwert and streitaxt being done out of armor are clearly armored plays. Ian Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05585316796421964527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4235572328009577701.post-18024900972916112202013-06-17T17:10:38.725-04:002013-06-17T17:10:38.725-04:00OK, you have more hands-on experience than I do an...OK, you have more hands-on experience than I do and know Fiore much better than I do, and the only version of it I have around is Price's training guide, but I'm still not sure I buy it. That kind of superlative seems common to me from, say, rapier manuals. Meanwhile Price seems to at least imply (maybe I extrapolate too much?) is that spear is shown as much so you learn to counter it as so you learn to fight with it.<br /><br />I thought I might argue with Vadi: his illustrations are all unarmored except for pollaxe and halfsword. Talhoffer shows armor only for spear-and-sword fighting, but I don't think that's conclusive.<br /><br />Tom Hudsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295247089905712338noreply@blogger.com