In reading through Alexis' archives over at Tao of D&D, I read an interesting article and ensuing discussion on training, and the difference between training and practice.
Now, I believe a starting character should be a pretty highly-trained individual: someone at the level of a journeyman, a member of a professional association, or a Bachelor of a University. In 99% of cases, the character got there through training: there was a master, and the character was a student. This could have been the Master-at-Arms on their father's estate, a scholar at a University, some weirdo who takes in orphans and teaches them to be pickpockets and sneak-thieves, or what-have-you.
Something I've never been able to reconcile with D&D, though, is stories like Charlie Parker. With a basic education in music under his belt, and some informal instruction from acquaintances and listening to records (let's say he was a 1st level jazz musician at this point), Parker set out to practice. He spent his late teens practicing 15 hours a day, and emerged as a master - one of the best in the world (by old D&D standards, probably level 9 - name level).
So, in 3 years, practicing 15 hours a day, Parker went up 8 levels. That's an average of 1755 hours of individual practice per level, or about 220 8-hour days.
How to handle a player who wants their character to "woodshed" (as in practice non-stop out behind the woodshed) for a year to gain a level or two?
I don't know, but this is something that bothers me. In an ideal world, XP should probably be awarded for practicing a great deal and revoked for failure to practice. This may be too fiddly, and would almost certainly lead to the first act of a campaign being the, "We train for two years, what now?" phase.
Don't have a solution, but it's something that bugs me.
It seems to me the main problem is that in the real world, practice is hard and boring and it sucks. In D&D, it takes a single sentence: "I train really hard for 3 years." So, let's make practice annoying and boring.
ReplyDeleteEvery 2 hours you spend training, roll a d6. You get that many experience points. You must roll every die separately. You must use real dice. You must note down every roll. You must be watched by the DM the entire time. You must keep track of the time/date passing.
At this rate, assuming 1 die roll every 2 seconds (a low-ball, I think), it will take on average 20 minutes to gain 2000 XP, regardless of how many hours per day you are spending. The character still has to pay for rent and food and such during the time that passes, or have it paid for them. Good luck, ya fuckin' bastards.
"It seems to me the main problem is that in the real world, practice is hard and boring and it sucks. In D&D, it takes a single sentence: "I train really hard for 3 years." So, let's make practice annoying and boring."
DeleteYes, exactly.
I kinda like that solution on the face of it, but let's plug in the numbers from my example to check it out.
So, let's say you practice for 365 days a year, 15 hours per day, for three years, (we'll ignore that that's not really practical for now) and that's enough to go from First to Name level.
Assuming a Fighter XP progression, that's an average of 1.8 XP per hour of practice, or 3.6 XP per two hours - almost exactly average for a d6.
So, you actually pretty much nailed the example I used (don't know if you just pulled the numbers out of your hat or actually figured it out).
You may also want to check out Tao of D&D - Alexis has some pretty good training rules that are kinda like what you describe, IIRC, but I don't have the link handy.
I did pull these numbers out of a hat, but I think they're actually too low for the example you used. Fighters reach level 9 at about 240,000 XP depending on system. 240,000 XP/3 years/365 days/15 hours = 14.6 XP/hour, rather than 1.8 XP/hour.
DeleteThe numbers can be fiddled with however you want, it's the system that matters (I suggest determining how many real-world minutes you feel should grant 1,000 XP and work it out from there). In order to level without adventuring, you have to convince your pals AND the DM to sit around for hours watching you roll boring dice. This makes sense to me, as its exactly what would happen if you were actually adventurers.
I think if this were implemented and a group decided to settle down and practice for a year, they'd get six minutes in before someone said "Fuck this! Let's go kill something!" and they'd all be "Oh my god yes, practice sucks!" and D&D would be back on again. Adventurers just aren't made for the sedentary life.
(also, no music or TV is allowed to be played during practice, as this is a "distraction")
I've been an avid reader of Tao of D&D for years now, easily my favorite D&D blog. I do know his training system, but it's a bit too fiddly for me at present, and is technically for skills rather than experience points, though I suppose the same principle applies.
"I did pull these numbers out of a hat, but I think they're actually too low for the example you used. Fighters reach level 9 at about 240,000 XP depending on system. 240,000 XP/3 years/365 days/15 hours = 14.6 XP/hour, rather than 1.8 XP/hour."
DeleteYes, it was late, and I think I multiplied one too many times.
"I think if this were implemented and a group decided to settle down and practice for a year, they'd get six minutes in before someone said "Fuck this! Let's go kill something!" and they'd all be "Oh my god yes, practice sucks!" and D&D would be back on again. Adventurers just aren't made for the sedentary life."
Indeed.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe game Ars Magica has an excellent system for character advancement through practice. It basically tracks what you do each season and allows you to increase your skill based on what you are learning from. There are limitations based on how good your instructional sources are. You can't master the sword just by swinging it out back all day, you have to train with a master with a higher skill level than you, or have an instructional book written by a master. Otherwise you have to get real world experience, ie actual combat experience!
ReplyDeleteI've been meaning to check out Ars Magica for a while, there's yet another reason!
DeleteHi Charles,
ReplyDeleteold post I know but...
there is also a difference between weapon skill and combat skill.
Blooded and unblooded troops.
One might train for 25yrs in kendo or european swordsmanship... the skill bonus would be HUGE, to hit, defence, initiative etc
BUT combat experience: with fear and pain, smell of blood and entrails, sounds of screams... dealing with the aminal emotional real possibility of dying... this is a different set of factors in fighting skill: morale, skill in not dying (luck based HP), dirty tricks, willpower (pain, fear and fatigue).
Presumably it is possible for someone to have poor to mediocre skill in a weapon but have lots of combat experience.
I appreciate your blog, hope you get to where your aiming, enjoying reading your scholarship unfold.
For sure.
DeleteReminds me of Kriegspiel, the granddaddy of all roleplaying games.
It was a wargame invented by a Prussian officer where you roleplay a commander.
It had a mechanic whereby green troops held up really well to cannon fire, but collapsed under charges, whereas veterans broke under cannon fire but held up to charges.
Seems weird, until you realize that the vets realize that their experience does absolutely nothing to protect them from a cannonball, but that if they run from a cavalry charge, they will surely die, and that only their combat experience and discipline can save them.
Just sort of a rambling thought you inspired.
that could be fun, actually... the player-characters need to train, plan, obtain supplies, and only after much deliberation actually set off on their journey. Random sickness, politics and wars in the area, other events (fallen in love? invented something notable in the course of studying?) , lack of funds and simple disillusionment, contentment or apathy lesding to sidequests just to begin the main quest.
ReplyDeleteSome training is more valuable than others - the day it just clicks. think of an autodidactic learner. compare his educational progress from a day of khan academy, edx, mit online, youtube videos, deliberately seeking wisdom and practicing his knowledge... vs the same dude, lazily floating about on mildly amusing videos and games, or watching but not learning anything new or not retaining new stuff.